Just a query about punctuation.
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- Junior Lexiterian
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- Location: Wigan,North West,England.
Just a query about punctuation.
Could someone please confirm whether a comma is needed before or after a conjunction,I was always taught that no comma is required at either time but recently I have noticed newspapers and other texts doing just that. Is my understanding wrong?
I never make mistakes,just unavoidable errors!
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- Great Grand Panjandrum
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- Location: Crownsville, MD
Re: Just a query about punctuation.
If you are talking about creating a series of three, four, or five or more items, you need a comma to separate them. However, there has long been a debate as to whether a comma was needed after the next-to-the-last item in the series (i. e., after the "four" above). This also applies to a series of six, seven, eight, and nine or more items. I think it's more a matter of style than grammar. In a newspaper or something like the US Congressional Record, where a lot of stuff is printed on a daily basis, not using the last comma saved not only ink but also the lead type for a comma and the time to find and set it back in the old days of moveable type, long before word processors and word processing software on personal computers. Now that computers have replaced human typesetters the time involved no longer matters.Could someone please confirm whether a comma is needed before or after a conjunction, I was always taught that no comma is required at either position but recently I have noticed newspapers and other texts doing just that. Is my understanding wrong?
In part, the current GPO (Government Printing Office) Style Manual in part has this to say:
Obviously, things can vary on your side of The Pond.8.42. After each member within a series of three or more words, phrases, letters, or figures used with and, or, or nor.
red, white, and blue
horses, mules, and cattle; but horses and mules and
cattle
by the bolt, by the yard, or in remnants
a, b, and c
neither snow, rain, nor heat
2 days, 3 hours, and 4 minutes (series); but 70 years 11
months 6 days (age)
8.43. Before the conjunction in a compound sentence
containing two or more independent clauses, each of which could
have been written as a simple sentence.
Fish, mollusks, and crustaceans were plentiful in the
lakes, and turtles frequented the shores.
The boy went home alone, and his sister remained with the
crowd.
Regards//Larry
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
-- Attributed to Richard Henry Lee
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
-- Attributed to Richard Henry Lee
The comma after the penultimate item in a list: first, second, and third is called a "Harvard comma." Some call it the "Oxford comma" or "serial comma."
It's a stylistic issue. Either way is correct. Technical writers prefer it as it lowers the risk of ambiguity. Journalists and advertisers think it merely takes up valuable space.
It's a stylistic issue. Either way is correct. Technical writers prefer it as it lowers the risk of ambiguity. Journalists and advertisers think it merely takes up valuable space.
- David McWethy
- Lexiterian
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- Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas (the Athens of the Ozarks)
Re: Just a query about punctuation.
I remember a situation I encountered during the reconstruction and remodeling of an historic old building: The part of the plans and specifications dealing with insulating the HVAC ducts, as prepared by the mechanical engineer, read:
During one of my inspections I noticed some uninsulated supply-air ductwork being installed; when I brought this to the attention of the contractor he referred me to the contract documents portion, which he was reading as if it were written: The ducts to be insulated were only those supply ducts and return air ducts that were located in the attic; it was obvious, then, that no insulation was required for the ducts located in the between-floors plenum.
One phrase; two widely disparate interpretations (both of which were valid), all because of a missing comma. Had the phrase been written
The intention was clear (to the owner and the architect): The ducts to be insulated were those which supplied heated or cooled air, wherever they were located; and those return air ducts located in the uninsulated attic.All supply ducts and return air ducts located in the attic shall be lined on the inside with 1"...insulation....
During one of my inspections I noticed some uninsulated supply-air ductwork being installed; when I brought this to the attention of the contractor he referred me to the contract documents portion, which he was reading as if it were written: The ducts to be insulated were only those supply ducts and return air ducts that were located in the attic; it was obvious, then, that no insulation was required for the ducts located in the between-floors plenum.
One phrase; two widely disparate interpretations (both of which were valid), all because of a missing comma. Had the phrase been written
it's meaning would have been crystal-clear.All supply ducts, and return air ducts located in the attic, shall be lined on the inside with 1"...insulation.
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things...."
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- Great Grand Panjandrum
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Re: Just a query about punctuation.
I've always thought clarity was the chief goal here, so an excellent illustation, Mcwethy!
Welcome to the Agora, Kiri. Keep hanging around and posting please.
Welcome to the Agora, Kiri. Keep hanging around and posting please.
pl
Re: Just a query about punctuation.
Let's get grammatical here. Two main clauses are joined by a comma and a coordinating conjunction (and, or, nor, for, but, yet, so). Example: "I forgot to eat lunch, so I started getting really hungry in the early afternoon."
However, if the coordinating conjunction is used simply with a compound subject or compound verb, no comma is needed. Examples: "John and I decided to carpool to work every day." "Miranda put on her best dress and proceeded to the interview." These are still simple sentences with more than one subject or verb.
Subordinating conjunction are a different matter. Introductory subordinate clauses using a subordinating conjunction are typically set off with a comma. Example: "Because I could not stop for death, he kindly stopped for me."
Subordinate clauses following main clauses are separated with commas if the subordinate clause is restrictive but do NOT use commas in they are non-restrictive. Examples: "I ordered steak because I was hungry" (restrictive) and " I ordered steak, although I was not hungry" (non-restrictive).
In short, most commas depend on the grammatical context, not on pausing.
However, if the coordinating conjunction is used simply with a compound subject or compound verb, no comma is needed. Examples: "John and I decided to carpool to work every day." "Miranda put on her best dress and proceeded to the interview." These are still simple sentences with more than one subject or verb.
Subordinating conjunction are a different matter. Introductory subordinate clauses using a subordinating conjunction are typically set off with a comma. Example: "Because I could not stop for death, he kindly stopped for me."
Subordinate clauses following main clauses are separated with commas if the subordinate clause is restrictive but do NOT use commas in they are non-restrictive. Examples: "I ordered steak because I was hungry" (restrictive) and " I ordered steak, although I was not hungry" (non-restrictive).
In short, most commas depend on the grammatical context, not on pausing.
Ars longa, vita brevis
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- Great Grand Panjandrum
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Re: Just a query about punctuation.
But clarity should rule! McWethy's illustration above does not look grammatically like it needs a comma. However, the fact that someone did misinterpret it demonstrates beautifully why everything should be made absolutely clear. If it takes another, that is not strictly needed grammatically, Then let it be added.
pl
Re: Just a query about punctuation.
Here's a sterling example of a sentence that badly needs a comma, although only two items are listed, joined by "and". It came as part of an announcement from a local library concerning the attractions that will be included in the celebration of their 100th anniversary:
Oh, dear! And from a library!... There will also be a bounce house for children and food trucks.
- Slava
- Great Grand Panjandrum
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Re: Just a query about punctuation.
Odd choice of phrasing. I'd simply put the food trucks before the bounce house. It eliminates the need for a comma and puts the funner, perhaps more enticing attraction, at the end, giving it more emphasis.
Life is like playing chess with chessmen who each have thoughts and feelings and motives of their own.
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