TH substitution: S or T?
So, Flam, are you saying that Japanese do not distiguish (easily) between the voiced and the unvoiced in this contrastive pair?
Flam:
And no distinction between the [dh] of "brother" and the [th] of brothel?
BD, didn't make a distinction between "brother' and "brothel" either.
Remember we should be talking about someone who is all-but, if not fluent in English, yet retains a foreign accent, and not someone who is just learning to distinguish between the English phonemes.
Apo
Flam:
Why "ji" for "the" in one position and "ze" for 'the' in the other?Ji ozer day I went wiz my brozer to ze brozel.
And no distinction between the [dh] of "brother" and the [th] of brothel?
BD, didn't make a distinction between "brother' and "brothel" either.
Remember we should be talking about someone who is all-but, if not fluent in English, yet retains a foreign accent, and not someone who is just learning to distinguish between the English phonemes.
Apo
'Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination.' -Max Planck
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- Grand Panjandrum
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The former "the" precedes a word beginning with a vowel. Therefore, it is pronounced /dhi/ in English, which a Japanese-influenced speaker would hear as [zi]. Because [zi] is an allophone of /ji/ (postalveolar affricate) in Japanese, a Japanese may realise English /dhi/ by [ji].Flam:Why "ji" for "the" in one position and "ze" for 'the' in the other?Ji ozer day I went wiz my brozer to ze brozel.
Mea culpa. I though brothel has a voiced dental just like brother.And no distinction between the [dh] of "brother" and the [th] of brothel?
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- Grand Panjandrum
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Oh, now I understand the brother/brothel question. The thing is also that brothel can be either pronounced with a voiced or a voiceless th (I pronounce it voiceless). As I pointed out before, most Brazilians would pronounce it bródeu, maybe also influenced by the Portuguese word bordel (which we pronounce bordéu).
Brazilian dude
Brazilian dude
Languages rule!
Interesting...
bordello
1598, from It. variant of M.E. bordel "house of prostitution" (c.1305), from O.Fr. bordel "brothel," dim. of borde "hut made of planks," from Frank. *bord "board." Sense of "brothel" in Eng. first recorded 1850.
brothel
"bawdy house," c.1593, shortened from brothel-house, from brothel "prostitute" (1493), earlier "vile person" (of either sex), 14c., from O.E. broðen pp. of breoðan "deteriorate, go to ruin," from P.Gmc. *breuthanan, var. of *breutanan "to break." In 16c. brothel-house was confused with unrelated bordel (see bordello) and shifted meaning from a person to a place.
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- Junior Lexiterian
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In French these days, if you say 'c'est un bordel' you just mean 'it's a madhouse', 'it's chaos'.
Which seems a bit severe on the brothel-keepers or madams of this world: maybe one or two of them are efficient managers.
However, the same line of thinking gives rise to the English euphemism 'disorderly house' ...
Which seems a bit severe on the brothel-keepers or madams of this world: maybe one or two of them are efficient managers.
However, the same line of thinking gives rise to the English euphemism 'disorderly house' ...
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- Great Grand Panjandrum
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Jerry Lewis, of course!What do we call a disorderly orderly?
Regards//Larry
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
-- Attributed to Richard Henry Lee
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
-- Attributed to Richard Henry Lee
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- Grand Panjandrum
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Not quite. Sibilants are unvoiced in modern Scandinavian languages (with the possible exception of Icelandic, or Farœic which retain, of course, traces of a much older phonetic system and about which I do know to little to comment). Thus when in Norwegian (or Swedish or Danish) one sees a «z», it is invariably pronounced [s].......
Just as a Norwegian chooses [t] and [d], when they would have a choice of their native [s] and [z]?
...
Henri
曾记否,到中流击水,浪遏飞舟?
Dam,
Youse guyse flat FLAME on the phonetics, an' stuff...(INTL Translation: "you are very good.")
I've been hangin' out, trolling as some say, and would simply kill to be snowed in at an Alpine lodge with a dozen or so of Y'ALL, along with some coldbeer. (That's one word in Texas.)
Meanwhile, I'll continue to troll, y'all continue to pick it apart, and one day I'll chime in. Not at the moment, however, since I'm a bit "indisposed" (Ukr: Gorilka)and would likely say something I'd later egret. Regress. Regret.
Que les vaya bien, amigos... (May it go well with you)
JJ
Youse guyse flat FLAME on the phonetics, an' stuff...(INTL Translation: "you are very good.")
I've been hangin' out, trolling as some say, and would simply kill to be snowed in at an Alpine lodge with a dozen or so of Y'ALL, along with some coldbeer. (That's one word in Texas.)
Meanwhile, I'll continue to troll, y'all continue to pick it apart, and one day I'll chime in. Not at the moment, however, since I'm a bit "indisposed" (Ukr: Gorilka)and would likely say something I'd later egret. Regress. Regret.
Que les vaya bien, amigos... (May it go well with you)
JJ
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- Grand Panjandrum
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- Great Grand Panjandrum
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Welcome, JJ! Hope that's some good Belgian beer you're talking about. I'm working on a large bottle at the moment (750 ml, i. e., "a fifth of beer") that's 9% alcohol by volume. "The one beer to have when you're having only one!"Dam,
Youse guyse flat FLAME on the phonetics, an' stuff...(INTL Translation: "you are very good.")
I've been hangin' out, trolling as some say, and would simply kill to be snowed in at an Alpine lodge with a dozen or so of Y'ALL, along with some coldbeer. (That's one word in Texas.)
Puns are quite acceptable here, JJ. Stick around, I hope you enjoy it here.Meanwhile, I'll continue to troll, y'all continue to pick it apart, and one day I'll chime in. Not at the moment, however, since I'm a bit "indisposed" (Ukr: Gorilka)and would likely say something I'd later egret. Regress. Regret.
Que les vaya bien, amigos... (May it go well with you)
JJ
Regards//Larry
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
-- Attributed to Richard Henry Lee
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
-- Attributed to Richard Henry Lee
Henri:
Swedish and Norwegian
And, BD, I have never heard "brothel" pronounced with a voiced dental fricative, (or replaced by a voiced labio-dental fricative [v] either).
Apo
Thank you, Henri! I hadn't ever noticed this before!Sibilants are unvoiced in modern Scandinavian languages....
Swedish and Norwegian
And, BD, I have never heard "brothel" pronounced with a voiced dental fricative, (or replaced by a voiced labio-dental fricative [v] either).
brothelbroth·el (brŏth'əl, brô'thəl) pronunciation
n.
A house of prostitution.
[Short for brothel-house, from Middle English brothel, prostitute, from brothen, past participle of brethen, to go to ruin, from Old English brēothan, to decay.]
Apo
'Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination.' -Max Planck
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