Brazilian dudebrothel BRAHT-ul (o as in hot, th as in thin).
Of the four variants for this word - the others being BRAWTH-ul (like broth + el), which is often listed, and BRATH-ul (th as in then) and BRAWTH-UL, which are now rarely listed - the one recommended above is by far most often preferred or given first by authorities past and present.
TH substitution: S or T?
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- Grand Panjandrum
- Posts: 1464
- Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:31 pm
- Location: Botucatu - SP Brazil
From The Big Book of Beastly Mispronunciations:
Languages rule!
Hey, BD, is that a typo in your first pronunciation, the quote from the Big Book...? "BRAHT" or "BRATH"?
My feeble notion is that it's an unvoiced inter-dental fric, like "thin," and not "them." Probably it said that, and I missed it.
Haven't talked to anyone about phonetics since 1976. Lots of dust on my velar stops, dude.
Brothel around here might be heard as a "cat-house," probably from a Dutch word for Eng. purse. Don't know.
This is fun. Indulge me while I smile...
My feeble notion is that it's an unvoiced inter-dental fric, like "thin," and not "them." Probably it said that, and I missed it.
Haven't talked to anyone about phonetics since 1976. Lots of dust on my velar stops, dude.
Brothel around here might be heard as a "cat-house," probably from a Dutch word for Eng. purse. Don't know.
This is fun. Indulge me while I smile...
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- Grand Panjandrum
- Posts: 1464
- Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:31 pm
- Location: Botucatu - SP Brazil
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- Junior Lexiterian
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:24 pm
affricatives with "tr" and "dr"
The comment below about "tree" being a pronunciation substitute for "3" reminded me of something I realized at least in my own vocabulary. Though I've heard many people say "tree" for the number, I will use the dental fricatives θ & ð for the "th" sound. My realization comes in the form of how I pronounce (and have heard others near me [New England] area pronounce) the words "tree" or "dry" or any word whose initial letters are "tr" or "dr." I tend to run the two together and make an affricative in the beginning, unvoiced for "t-" and voiced for "d-." Examples:
"Tree" sounds like "chree [/ʧri/]" and dry sounds like "jry" [/ʤrai/]. Does anyone else pronounce these this way? It only seems to be when an initial t- or d- comes before an r. It seems almost pretentious or labored to me to pronounce them [/tri/] or [/drai/]; the two beginning sounds need to be pronounced independently and to have a very slight pause between them so as not to say the affricative sound.
Also compare "derive" with "drive." The first one, to me, is [/dǝraiv/], where the schwa "ǝ" is very barely pronounced, but still there is something between the [/d/] and the [/r/] sounds, whereas "drive" becomes [/ʤraiv/].
Any thoughts?
"Tree" sounds like "chree [/ʧri/]" and dry sounds like "jry" [/ʤrai/]. Does anyone else pronounce these this way? It only seems to be when an initial t- or d- comes before an r. It seems almost pretentious or labored to me to pronounce them [/tri/] or [/drai/]; the two beginning sounds need to be pronounced independently and to have a very slight pause between them so as not to say the affricative sound.
Also compare "derive" with "drive." The first one, to me, is [/dǝraiv/], where the schwa "ǝ" is very barely pronounced, but still there is something between the [/d/] and the [/r/] sounds, whereas "drive" becomes [/ʤraiv/].
Any thoughts?
Brian Degnan
Thanks, Degnan!
I have heard this 'ch'-'j' variation before 'r'.
Just a couple of examples I found on the internet.
Apo
I have heard this 'ch'-'j' variation before 'r'.
Two random thingsAnd there are many sites which seem to not even having a listing for Connecticut at all. Bah.
I declare myself to be free of any accent whatsoever. It's the rest of you who speak odd. Even those of you who actually pronounce "tree" distinguishably from "chree". Which I'm told is mostly a local thing, but really, how else would you pronounce it? Some zonky weird way, perhaps.
The Christmas ChreeThis is our chree for this year. I say 'chree' bc Kevin noticed, a few years ago, the way I pronounce 'tr: it comes out as 'chr'. Hmph. Never noticed that myself. I blame my mother.
Just a couple of examples I found on the internet.
Apo
'Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination.' -Max Planck
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- Grand Panjandrum
- Posts: 1464
- Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:31 pm
- Location: Botucatu - SP Brazil
Thank you. I wonder about the English influence. The unvoiced affricate seems to pop up right often in strange places, i.e. "chree" (supra), which I hadn't thought of before, but seems to be part of my ideolect. In both cases (chree and porchmuf), we see a slide back, from the dental to the alveolear. Maybe it's just the old lazy tongue, not coming all the way up to the dental position.
On another, not completely unrelated point, there is supposed to be a old Portsmouth dialect in which "mouse" "out" and "house" rhyme with "close" (as in "not far" a/o/t "not open". Anyone know anything about it? All I can remember is an article in one of the local papers, maybe fifteen years ago, about how the dialect was dying out. The only other place I've ever come across that particular treatment of the /ou/ diphthong was in Maine, which is right far North of here. Thanks again.
On another, not completely unrelated point, there is supposed to be a old Portsmouth dialect in which "mouse" "out" and "house" rhyme with "close" (as in "not far" a/o/t "not open". Anyone know anything about it? All I can remember is an article in one of the local papers, maybe fifteen years ago, about how the dialect was dying out. The only other place I've ever come across that particular treatment of the /ou/ diphthong was in Maine, which is right far North of here. Thanks again.
Josh & tc,
Not sure about the Portsmouth folk, but the Richmonders for sure (I lived in Petersburg a while), although the "ou" is less like the Canadian long "o" while more like the mid-western long "a." Make sense?
"...chased the mace ate of the hace..." for "chased the mouse out of the house."
Yeah, there's the Canu..Canu..Canadians that say "ote of the hoce" for "out of the house," but they don't seem to get down this way much...
mis dos centavos,
JJ
Not sure about the Portsmouth folk, but the Richmonders for sure (I lived in Petersburg a while), although the "ou" is less like the Canadian long "o" while more like the mid-western long "a." Make sense?
"...chased the mace ate of the hace..." for "chased the mouse out of the house."
Yeah, there's the Canu..Canu..Canadians that say "ote of the hoce" for "out of the house," but they don't seem to get down this way much...
mis dos centavos,
JJ
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